A Teen, a YouTuber, and a Mom Talk Politics
On today’s show, we’re continuing our discussion and demonstration of how we talk politics with our kids. We are excited to share a conversation today between Brian Tyler Cohen, Sarah, and Sarah’s teenage son Griffin. A conversation between a teenage content consumer, the content creator, and the teen’s parent is a rare combination - one we think offers a lot of insight.
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EPISODE RESOURCES
We are thrilled to announce a joint live show this November with one of our favorites, Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text! Join us in Boston vis live stream on November 7 - for a fun night among friends.
Join us for a live virtual event with the Mormon Women for Ethical Government on Thursday, October 17 at 7pm MT / 9pm ET. All are welcome to join in real time, but the recording will only be available to MWEG members. Sign up through this link and join us!
Brian Tyler Cohen (Website)
Brian Tyler Cohen (@briantylercohen) (Instagram)
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TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.
Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.
[00:00:14] Music Interlude.
[00:00:29] Thank you so much for joining us today. As we get closer to the November election, we here at Pantsuit Politics have been thinking a lot about what you need, what you're doing, what life looks like in the lead up to an election. And we know that many of you in a variety of ways spend a bunch of time with kids and that you are influential people in kids lives. So on Tuesday, we shared some tips for how we talk to our own kids about politics. But more than telling you how we do it. We wanted to show you. So in Tuesday's episode, you heard from my nine-year-old Ellen as we discussed the presidential debate. Today we wanted to share what those conversations can sound like with older kids who are much more into politics. Sarah and her teenage son Griffin sat down with popular YouTuber Brian Tyler Cohen to chat about political engagement. Griffin is a big fan of Bryan's, watches a lot of his content, and so we were excited that Brian was willing to come be part of this really rare combination of a creator, a teenager who enjoys that creator's work and the parent of that teenager.
[00:01:29] Now, you'll hear that they recorded this conversation a couple of weeks ago, so they will briefly talk about debate anxiety. Don't worry, you haven't missed anything. There isn't anything coming up that we are aware of. All in all, this is a really interesting discussion among people at different places on the left of center to progressive spectrum and spanning a generation. During our last episode, we discussed the need to trust yourself and trust your kids when you're discussing politics. And I think in this conversation you'll hear how Sarah models that, that she trusts herself and she trusts Griffin.
[00:02:00] Before we share that discussion, a couple of announcements, please check out our show notes for information about our upcoming Boston live show. We'll be there with Vanessa Zoltan, our friend, and the host of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text on Thursday, November 7th. I am so excited to do this with Vanessa the week of the election, because wherever we are, whatever we know or don't know, by November 7th, Vanessa is a wise, fun, grounding person to be with, and I think it will just do us all some good to be in community laughing, sharing, thinking about where we are and what we're feeling. There is a livestream option available, so if you can't join us in Boston, we hope you will join us online. Tickets are on sale now.
[00:02:39] And if that's not enough, Pantsuit Politics for you, thank you so much, we are also doing a virtual event with the Mormon Women for Ethical Government next week on Thursday, October 17th. We are so excited to be with this group. You can find details on that event in our show notes as well. Up next, you're going to hear from Sarah, Griffin, and Brian Tyler Cohen, who Griffin will introduce very capably.
[00:02:58] Music Interlude.
Griffin [00:03:06] Brian Tyler Cohen is a progressive YouTuber and a contributor to MSNBC. He has six million subscribers over a couple social media platforms. And he has a show, No Lie with Brian Tyler Cohen, that has had very many people on it including President Joe Biden.
Sarah [00:03:24] There you go. We're delighted to have him here at Pantsuit Politics.
Griffin [00:03:28] Yeah, it's really cool.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:03:28] Well, thank you so much. I appreciate having me on.
Sarah [00:03:30] Brian very generously sent his book to us and Griffin, who you just heard introducing, my oldest son, saw it on the counter, said, "Hey, I watch him. And I wanted to get that book." And so I said, "Well, hey, let's have Brian on the show." You were so generous. You did a little interview with me at the DNC. We ran into each other. I was telling Brian about Griffin and I said, "Hey, we've been wanting to do a show about sort of talking to your kids, teenagers about the election." And so I invited Brian on here to be a generational bridge, a family therapist maybe. [Crosstalk].
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:04:08] You had billed it as family therapy so...
Griffin [00:04:13] That's weird.
Sarah [00:04:14] Griffin's like woe to me, didn't know that.
Griffin [00:04:15] I had no idea. It's crazy.
Sarah [00:04:17] because Griffin and I, listen, here's the truth, Brian. We have different news environments. You are part of Griffin's news environment. I would say the new-- I don't know if it's new anymore, but different from the mainstream media news environment, which is a lot of YouTubers, a lot of progressive analysis.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:04:39] Twitch streamers. Unfortunately.
Sarah [00:04:39] Twitch streamer. Fortunately or unfortunately. And I said, well, why don't we start talking about that? What do you think people, I mean maybe adults /parents and also not that you don't have adults in your audience. I know you're not just talking to-- a lot of our listeners are like, he's my favorite. We got a Venn diagram going on between Pantsuit Politics and No Lies. But what do you think probably the mainstream media and people who do not participate in this media environment, what do they misunderstand about this progressive place online where there's a lot of I think particularly new generations get their news and get their analysis.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:05:21] I think the main thing is probably-- and I do talk about this in the book, this longstanding idea of the both sides media. And I think the media is so focused on retaining either access or some fleeting sense of goodwill with Republicans that they always feel like if you're going to say anything about Republicans, well, you have to equate it with Democrats. And so Donald Trump incites an insurrection, but some Democrats somewhere misplaced the modifier and so you got to trash both sides. And again, I don't know if this is really so that they can maintain some degree of access so that we'll continue to see Donald Trump's lawyers go on these shows or Trump himself go on these shows, or these Trump mouthpieces go on these shows, but there is a sense that the media has to do something to anger both sides, I guess. And with this bizarre idea that if everybody's angry, then we're doing our jobs. I don't buy that. I don't buy this idea that you have to piss everybody off and then that's some positive reflection off of you.
[00:06:26] I piss off people who don't want to hear the truth. That's who my inbox is filled with when they're upset with how my coverage looks. So I think there's that and it's just been a long time of that. And I feel like the mainstream media has just come to terms with the fact that there hasn't been any competition for them and so they can keep doing it until the point now where there's suddenly all these YouTubers and these Twitch streamers and these TikToker who don't have to do that. I'm not going to get any Republicans to come on my show. And that's okay. I've tried. God knows I've tried. I've sent emails to everybody's office. Nat Gates's [sp] office one sent me back a response that included screenshots of 10 different tweets, and that was their way of saying not going to happen.
Griffin [00:07:13] I love that. That's professional
Sarah [00:07:14] That's an interesting use of [crosstalk].
Griffin [00:07:16] Yeah.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:07:16] Yeah. Well, I think Maggie's a staffer. I think they have had other problems.
Sarah [00:07:21] I'll never forget Madison Cawthorn where he was encouraging other reps in the freshman class to really just staff up communications and not have any policy staff. It lives rent free in my head, that little tidbit, all the time.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:07:34] Yeah. Didn't have any legislative staff because he was so focused on comms. And so governing isn't the point. It's putting their brands. These people want to be famous. They want to be like social media stars. That's the incentive structure on the right. But in any case, I think that people who watch alternative media they're recognizing that there is another option out there, that you don't have to just get fed this both sides journalism that's been kind of pervading our media for years with no competition and no pushback and no worry that anybody is going to dethrone them. And I think that's what we're seeing right now.
Sarah [00:08:14] Well, the only thing I worry about is-- and I don't worry about it because I think what we've done, which is just additive to the media environment, is more helpful than thinking we were going to fix the media environment. Because the only thing-- and we've talked about this a lot- Griffin and I. When he's watching your show or someone else's is I'm like, just notice that when they're using clips, those clips or some of that reporting was done by mainstream media. We deal with this all the time. People will say stuff to us and I'm like, "Hey, I'm not a reporter. Just remember I pay for the New York Times because I want paid reporters out there doing the job. And what I appreciate, I think, about this new environment is at least it's clear. I think some of the problem with mainstream media, especially with cable news, is the mixing of reporting and op-ed in a way that's hard to delineate. You know what I mean?
[00:09:03] But I think with what you do and what I do to a certain extent is like always being clear. Like, hey, we have a perspective. We're not trying to be both sides. We're not reporters. We're depending on the reporting of other people. We are interviewing people. But because it's alternative media, because it is clearly labeled as progressive media or whatever the case might be, I hope that Griffin's generation is getting that clear perspective of you have to have a mix, you have to have analysis, but you also need to recognize where real reporting is required. How do you think about that?
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:09:35] I have said from the very beginning that I've started doing this as-- I view myself as an activist, and that should underscore the fact that there are journalists out there doing great, great work, doing a great job. And they need to continue because we're just one small piece of the ecosystem now. I do think that it's become more and more essential to have independent media offer up our opinion on what's happening and offer up some facts and fill a lot of the holes in terms of where mainstream media isn't being as assertive as I think that they need to be right now. I do think that you can be overtly biased in favor of democracy. I think that we all have a vested interest in doing that.
Griffin [00:10:16] That's a very, very good point that you can have a bias in your reporting, but you have to be upfront with that and explain why you believe those things. It's impossible to not have a bias because you're a person. You can't make a cake without a bowl. And if you tried to, you would either be lying or you'd get stuff all over your table. You have to be upfront about what you are and what you believe and why you believe those things, and then you can get to the work of doing the analysis that is colored by the things you believe.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:10:51] I also don't know that anybody in this country shouldn't be biased in favor of democracy.
Griffin [00:10:56] Yeah, especially that.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:10:58] And I think I discussed this in the book, but that's the plane that we're all on. And so if democracy fails, then there's no need for a free press on the left or the right. And so that's foundational. If we want any type of free press to continue to exist, we have to make sure that we protect democracy first and foremost. And so if you have a Republican Party, a MAGA Republican Party that is overtly hostile to democracy, then that puts our media at risk. And what's the first thing to go when you when you slide into an autocratic system? It's the free and fair press. There's no need for free and fair press in an autocratic system. That's why we have the famed North Korea news lady who just--
Griffin [00:11:41] Oh my God.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:11:42] And I know you've seen it.
Griffin [00:11:43] That...
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:11:46] Look, there is a reason that that exists. That's what state TV is and that's the last thing that we should want in this country, whether you're on the left or right or in the center.
Sarah [00:11:55] Well, in prioritizing democracy, I think one of my favorite things I read recently is there's a reason that all these autocratic countries at least fake it. They at least fake an election. Why do they go to the trouble? Because they at least want that wash of democracy over the top of it. That's how important it is in 2024. And we've come to such a point where people really expect that even if it's a fake election. They're faking it. What does that tell you?
Griffin [00:12:19] It's like everyone wants to at least seem like they're for the people, even if they're a billionaire who is currently fighting multiple lawsuits for just straight up lying to people who support them. They still want to seem like they're for the people, because if they're not for the people it's pretty easy for the people to not be for them.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:12:37] A billionaire who claims to be for free speech, for example, while fighting against speech on his own platform that he may or may not have purchased.
Griffin [00:12:46] So weird example. I love it.
Sarah [00:12:47] That you can just pluck out of the air like that. It's crazy.
Griffin [00:12:48] I'm glad nothing in real life happens like that, especially not for $44 billion
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:12:52] I like to think I have an imaginative [crosstalk].
Griffin [00:12:58] So I'm sure you've noticed that because you do a lot of day by day news stuff. But it's been kind of a remarkable month or two months for news. We started at the end of June with Joe Biden having a very bad debate and perhaps picturing the election. And now we're here with a new candidate and a basically completely new perspective. Like we have a completely new atmosphere and it's been two months. It's not been an incredible amount of time.
Sarah [00:13:27] How do you take it in, Brian, when you're like doing it day to day? Have you had a moment to zoom out and be like whoa.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:13:34] No, I don't have time to do anything. Every day is completely full of stuff. And I'm lucky if I can make it to the next meal. But there's no planning happening. And I was confident, by the way, before Joe Biden took that stage, as I think where most people. Look, his staff wouldn't have put him on that stage if they believed that he would have done a bad job.
Sarah [00:14:00] It was their idea.
Griffin [00:14:01] They had the idea to do it.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:14:03] It was their idea. We haven't had a debate this early. And so the fact that they trotted him out on that stage, they obviously were confident as well. And look, every time we'd seen Joe Biden up to that point, whether it was at the State of the Union this year, the State of the Union the previous year, his press conferences, even when I sat down with him at the White House, he was always fine. But obviously, there came a point at some point between the last time he came out and this time where he lost his ability to speak extemporaneously.
Sarah [00:14:30] Will finally get you so far in a presidential race, even if you're the incumbent.
Griffin [00:14:34] Yeah.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:14:35] And so perhaps naively I feel completely-- look, Kamala Harris is not Joe Biden. She has no issue prosecuting this case against Donald Trump. She is also uniquely suited for this moment in terms of the prosecutor versus felon framing, the reproductive rights champion versus reproductive rights opponent framing, her ability to lay out a vision for the future while Donald Trump is steeped in his clinging on to the past and looking to go back to the 1950s and perpetuating his vengeance sword. Now, we also have to remember Donald Trump is not some master communicator. This is a guy who is continuing to brag about the fact that he aced a test intended to detect dementia. This is a guy who thinks that Nikki Haley was in charge of the Capitol on January 6th.
Sarah [00:15:23] And I definitely think he's confused about the meaning of asylum. That's where I've settled on the Hannibal Lecter thing.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:15:29] Yeah. It is weird.
Sarah [00:15:29] I think that's the only explanation that makes sense that makes sense?
Griffin [00:15:32] He thinks that seeking asylum literally means--
Sarah [00:15:33] Just asylum that you go into if you're Hannibal Lecter versus immigration asylum. I just think he's fundamentally [inaudible].
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:15:39] Also I mean he does think Hannibal Lecter he's made Hannibal Lecter advocating for him a mainstay in his stump speech.
Griffin [00:15:47] It's like so often he says it.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:15:49] He says it way too often for it to be--
Griffin [00:15:51] Like a joke or like a...
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:15:52] A joke anymore. And he's telling to lot of people. And the first time he could have done it like one more time and kind of poke fun at himself. But he's not capable of doing that. He doesn't have the ability. He has no humility. And so no matter what he says, even if we figure out that he is saying something inane, he has to just double, triple and quadruple down because he has to prove that like, no, I'm right.
Sarah [00:16:18] I really like how he gets up there and calls out his staff, too. My staff think that I should do this thing, it's perfectly logical and reasonable. What do you crowd of adoring people think I should do?
Griffin [00:16:28] My favorite thing he does is he will go up and he'll say, "Many people are saying this. I'm not saying this, but many people are saying this." It's just like, which people?
Sarah [00:16:36] That's so funny. That's like a classic Mean Girls. If you've ever read like queen bees and mean girl or the book Mean Girls is based on which is a sociological book. And that's a classic thing that a mean girl does. If you're a queen bee, you say other people have said this about [inaudible].
Griffin [00:16:50] A lot of people are saying this. I'm not saying this.
Sarah [00:16:51] Yeah, a lot of people are saying this. Beth and I were just talking about this with this crazy two months and everything is changed. And look, I think it's both sides because it's so much about personality. It's so much about normal versus weird with the vibe of the election, the vibe election even. It feels like to me-- I don't know if you've noticed this in the last... I think, Brian, you're very much surfing the waves of memes and social media content and what's coming in from the Republican media environment and we're seeing this a lot with our listeners. It's like people are falling back on some real old schticks like the socialists and the Communists and the Democrats want to take all your money. And it's just like you can see people-- because the Trump campaign's not really giving them, I think, a lot to go on as far as new attack lines. And so people are just floundering. They know they want to go after her. They know that they want to stick up for Republicans, but they don't really know what to say or do. So they're going back on-- I mean, that's what I'm seeing. It's just lots of socialism, lots of Cold War fearmongering.
Griffin [00:18:07] Well, I would say in 2016, the reason that Donald Trump had an easier time-- maybe not an easy time, but an easier time with Hillary Clinton is because she had been in politics for so long at that point. There have been so much time first about her husband and also about her to be said. And it didn't even have to be true, it just had to exist. And Joe Biden had also been in politics for a long time and he was also just evidently old. That was his main thing, is that he was old. Wasn't really an issue until very recently, but it was just that he was old. And Kamala Harris even though she's new, it's not that he's inexperienced, but she hasn't been in the public eye as much. She is kind of an unknown factor. They don't really know anything about her other than she was the borders czar. It was such an ineffective tactic that I don't even see it anymore.
Sarah [00:18:57] Well, maybe that's why they're leaning on these tropes.
Griffin [00:19:01] Because they don't have anything.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:19:02] Absolutely. I think that's exactly right, that you need these tried and true tactics that have won Republicans elections in the past. And so they know that if they can just point to somebody and say socialism, that's going to scare their low info base and they'll say we are going to have socialism. But I think what's important to remember is Republicans have been crying socialism and communism for decades now. We had eight years of Bill Clinton. We're still not a socialist country. We had eight years of Barack Obama. We're still not a socialist country. We had four years of Joe Biden. We're still not a socialist country. So at what point does the socialism kick in here? Because we've been hearing this exact same attack from Republicans for years and years and years. And I think it's a testament to their contempt for their own audience. Because if they keep saying if you elect Democrats you're going to usher in socialism and it doesn't happen, at some point the audience has to look at that and say, maybe we're being lied to. Maybe the people who say if we elect a Democrat that means guaranteed socialism and capitalism vanishes and you'll have to give all your money to the state and the state's going to own the means of production. And it's not happening and it never happens. I think that's important to recognize.
[00:20:12] And I think the onus is on their own audience to say that, too. It's like you've told us the same shtick before and it never pans out. So either you're lying to us or-- I mean, that's really the only option. So you're lying to us. So I think the onus is on their audience to demand more from their politicians because their politicians keep selling them the same bill of goods that doesn't actually pan out. And if a Democrat told us the same thing that Republicans would do for decades that never panned out, I would get tired of feeling abused by the people who purportedly I trust. And so I think that that's kind of the sad part of that. But I think what you said about Kamala being kind of a blank slate and doesn't have these years and years and years of baggage in the same way that Hillary Clinton and Joe Biden did, I think that's why it is so important right now for Democrats to not allow Republicans to redefine who Kamala Harris is. And they've been very good about that in the past, about swooping in-- Griffin you were too young for this, but when Obamacare first came about, and this is the ACA, this is why you're going to be covered for the next decade under Obama's health care plan. When that first came about, Democrats did such a poor job in messaging for it that the Republicans came in and said if you enact this legislation that will usher in death panels.
Sarah [00:21:35] Remember the death panels.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:21:38] Who are going to decide whether you can live or die, whether we're going to pull the plug on Mima. And Democrats didn't message effectively enough. And it was also confusing to message a massive health care bill when you're talking about the implications of Medicare Part D. And it was very confusing already. And there was also the individual mandate. So part of the messaging is that there's going to be a fine imposed and like the whole thing was a little bit disastrous.
Sarah [00:22:03] And also the death panels, if you dig into it, it was something we need to talk about. If you dig into where some of that messaging came from, the idea that we spend all this money on people like last six months of life to do what? Not to kill them sooner, but it's like we do need-- the Medicare spending is bananas in the last six months of life. It's we're the majority of the money comes from. And so doctors saying like let's have a real conversation about what we want people's end of life to look like and what we should do. It was real, but it didn't play well on the cable news. That's not a nuanced conversation cable news is prepared to have.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:22:37] Even cable news, even relative to 2024, still wasn't a place where nuance could really thrive.
Griffin [00:22:43] We're not very good at having nuanced conversations, especially when there is like a very small glint of truth in what the people who are currently trying to destroy our democracy are saying. It is almost impossible to have those conversations. And I think a really good example of right now is transgender people in sports. It is an impossible conversation to have if I'm talking to someone about it. I have no idea what they think about the existence of trans people in the first place. I don't know. You're not having this conversation because you care about women's sports, so why are you having the conversation?
Sarah [00:23:16] Like you can't trust people [crosstalk] if they're having it in goodwill or in good faith.
Griffin [00:23:20] If you are having this conversation, it is not because you care about women's sports, it is because you care about something else. And I don't know what that is and I need to figure that out first.
Sarah [00:23:27] Yeah. The good faith component I think is a huge part of these conversations that happen online.
Griffin [00:23:31] You are not talking about death panels because you actually care.
Sarah [00:23:33] Care about end of life care.
Griffin [00:23:35] You're having that conversation because you want something else.
Sarah [00:23:37] There's a through line there for sure.
Griffin [00:23:38] You want something else there and I don't know what it is, but I'd like to. I want to know that first.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:23:43] When you're watching this stuff, to what degree does your generation have digital media literacy to the point where you can suss out this stuff? Because if you look at Facebook, which skews overwhelmingly older, for example, it's so easy for a lot of these creators to fool older generations. But I'm curious, when your generation watches this stuff, how easy is it to suss out people who are clearly acting in bad faith?
Griffin [00:24:08] I would say that our generation generally is very, very good at sussing out misinformation, especially because we just get-- I don't use short form media. But like TikTok YouTube shorts, Instagram reels, I know a lot of people who do and all of them are very good at figuring out when something is real, when something is motivated, when something could be fear mongering, when something could be just false. And I think you just have to kind of learn to be good at that because if you believe everything that everyone says on there is life threatening and the next terrifying thing, you will no longer be a person, you'll just be a fear machine.
Sarah [00:24:45] Well, that's what I wanted to ask both of you because I just was reading a thing about how particularly millennials struggle to volunteer, get active because they really took in this idea that it was systematic.
Griffin [00:25:01] You're talking about doomers.
Sarah [00:25:01] Do you know what I mean? Everything is a systematic problem. It doesn't matter what you do for the climate because these are big problems that your individual actions won't affect. And I've seen in Griffin where we would have like a lot of conflicts and finally I said, "Hey, if you're worried about this, if you're worried about homelessness, instead of fighting over our dinner table about capitalism, why don't you go volunteer at the local food pantry?" And he does every week. And I've noticed a huge difference.
Griffin [00:25:33] And right now I'm a little worried. I'm maybe not the best person to talk about our political climate just because of how politically engaged I am prepared to other people. But on this other website called tumblr.com--
Sarah [00:25:44] Website.
Griffin [00:25:46] No one uses it apart for me and like 20 other people. There's a very prevailing concept of stop waiting for the revolution to happen and go work at a soup kitchen. That is the thing I seen multiple times, is stop waiting for the communist revolution where everything's going to be fixed and go help your community.
Sarah [00:26:03] That's what you liked about Brian's book.
Griffin [00:26:05] Yeah. Is that you can't you can't do everything. You can't even do that much. But if you can, you should. You should stop wanting to be able to do something big and go ahead and do something small.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:26:16] That's 100% the right mentality in all of this. And that is what I talk about in the book. About reminding people of our own agency here. And we saw this in the Trump trials, too. There's a lot of waiting for prosecutors and judges and attorneys to swoop in and save us. And I think once we come to terms with the fact that these people aren't going to save us, that somebody else isn't going to just take care of Trump while we all sit back, that our politicians aren't going to do all the work while we just wait for our saviors to swoop in or white knights to come in and save, us once we recognize that we have all of the agency here, and in fact, a lot of people are working really hard to take that agency away, take our votes away, to suppress our votes, to make sure that we can't do what we do, I think once we come to terms with that fact, then we recognize our power in all of this. I tell the story about the difference in Wisconsin in terms of there being two votes per precinct and that being the difference in a Biden win in 2020 and a Trump win in 2020. That if we were just able to flip two votes per precinct, if Trump was able to flip two votes per precinct, then he would have won the election in the tipping point state. And so we do have we do have a lot of agency here. And I think that that's the right mentality in terms of what you've been looking at in terms of what you're doing. I think if more people acted that way, we would be in a lot better shape than where we are now.
[00:27:41] Music Interlude.
Sarah [00:27:49] Well, and the other thing I've been thinking a lot about, there's a great piece in The York Times magazine about the leaderless left, about how you don't have these organizational leaders. And so it's difficult too as activists because I think so much of the particularly online left is like a very activist space. But it's this activism, like I said, that interacts with this sense of doom and gloom and there's nothing we can do and it's a systemic problem. And I think what I hope is happening and I wonder what you both think about this, is because it felt like for a while your participation was your identity. So if you were an affected identity, that was your activism. The activism was just holding the identity as opposed to perpetuating ideas and strategies to further actual policy goals. And I do feel like that's shifted some. Am I just imagining that? Because I think that's the debate him and I have a lot. Is that it's not just enough to hold an identity and say this is a problem, there needs to be a place we're going forward: policy, elections. Because then it gets to like, well, it doesn't matter who we elect, they won't be able to get anything done. And you get this kind of cynical, pessimistic take that I think is really self-defeating.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:29:03] I think it's okay, I should say, to embrace incrementalism. I know that there's this whole sense of like, well, incrementalism doesn't work and you're a sucker and you're happy with crumbs. And we need to tear the whole system down. And if you don't want to do that, if you think this is a win, then you're a sucker, basically, and the system has got you. Look, incrementalism got us health care in the way that we have it. Is it fixed? I want to see Medicare for all. Are we near that? Well, we're a lot closer to that with the ACA than we were before the ACA. And I think it's okay to embrace incrementalism. That's the way things are going to work in this country. That's just the reality of the situation. And so I think it once we do come to terms with the fact that it is okay to celebrate small wins just because they're not huge wins, because they're not massive wins, that doesn't make you a sucker. I think it means that the work of a lot of people out there to, for example, get some gun safety law-- the first one that we have in 30 years-- doesn't mean that our schools are suddenly completely safe for that or that weapons of war aren't still proliferating our streets. But at the same time, it means that it's going to be safer, means it's going to be better, it's going to be better today than it was yesterday. And I think that's something that's worth celebrating.
[00:30:22] And a lot of these activists, even to get the small wins, have to put a ton of time and energy and resources and blood, sweat and tears into these ventures. And it is okay to celebrate a win without feeling like you're a sucker because you didn't get the whole thing because we didn't solve some massive problem. I think incrementalism is okay. But I'm curious Griffin what you think of that because I know that is a very online phenomenon. I felt like there are people who feel like it's uncool to embrace this idea of incrementalism because you're not getting the whole thing because there's people that want to see Medicare for all. And we say, well, this is good. What we have is better than it was before. It's like, yeah, but it's like you're a shill. You're like a neoliberal shill because you are happy for this.
Griffin [00:31:17] My mom hates the phrase neoliberal.
Sarah [00:31:18] Neoliberal is a trigger word.
Griffin [00:31:19] She doesn't like it very much.
Sarah [00:31:21] I think people throw it around as an insult and I don't even know what they're talking about except for whatever's come before. That's what neoliberal means. Whatever's come before. And that bugs me.
Griffin [00:31:31] I would say that there is a lot of-- and this is maybe a little strange, but I would say there is a lot of people who somewhat believe that being like a member of the left is a marginalized identity on its own. And it's like being on the left and supporting leftist causes and thinking that things need to change and everything's terrible right now and we have to move left to the whatever idea you have of a perfect world. And if you're happy right now with whatever we've done, then you're not a leftist. You're a fool. You're a liberal. I'm making a call out post right now that says that you killed my dog. You can't always hold the idea that you are fundamentally better and more right. And you can't hold this idea that until we get everything, we don't have anything. You can't hold this idea that until we get my personal vision of a perfect world, we don't have anything. And why are you so happy? There are children starving in Africa.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:32:40] That's exactly right. I think it is important for that exact reason to be able to celebrate wins when we get them and not feel like until we have everything, we have nothing. Because that undermines the work that so many people are doing. I mean, there's a reason that 81 million Americans turned out in the last election. And we did score a lot of wins. We scored wins for the American Rescue Plan, which saved the economy, the Inflation Reduction Act, which lowered health care costs. We allowed the government to negotiate lower health care. We have insulin and inhalers at $35 now. The notion that that doesn't impact hundreds of millions of people and make all of their lives better is kind of a denial of reality. We have the infrastructure law. We have the gun safety law. We have the Pact Act, which gave veterans health care. We have the Chips Act which added 800,000 manufacturing jobs.
[00:33:33] I think it's easy but also lazy to be able to look and say, well, I didn't get everything I wanted so it's not worth it because we didn't get the whole thing. And if you celebrate these wins, then you're owned by the system, then you're the establishment because that's what they want you to think. It's like the work that a lot of people did has changed people's lives in a way that we can't even comprehend and that most of us can't comprehend. But when suddenly somebody has their health care costs capped at $2,000 and it would have been millions of dollars, think about how their lives have changed. When somebody can afford insulin now that they wasn't able to afford it before, think about how their lives have changed. When vets who were impacted by the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war can suddenly afford health care or have health care coverage, that can be the difference between somebody who commits suicide and who doesn't.
[00:34:24] And so it is okay to celebrate victories along the way without feeling like it's some failure because you didn't get everything. And so I don't agree with the doom prism that we see. And I think it's perfectly acceptable, if not encouraged, to be able to celebrate what wins we have to give everybody a sense of there's a reason that we turn out and there is a reason we need people to turn out in the future. And if all you feel like is happening is that you're going to get castigated and criticized because we didn't get the whole farm, then there's not going to be an incentive for people to keep turning out.
Sarah [00:35:01] I just want to say that's what I admire about your work. Part of this is that high stakes. This is the morally righteous stance to take. It's not just that I disagree with you, you're a bad person if you don't see these stakes and respond with the exact same moral posturing I take. It just draws a lot of traffic. You know what I mean? Like it's just a high conflict model that has been successful for a lot of people on the right and the left. And so that's what I admire a lot about you because it would be easy to lean into that. But you can't talk about the stakes without adopting this model. When you're talking about democracy, when we were saying like they've been doing the same fearmongering over and over again, I thought, well, you could also say that about the left and Trump, except for January 6th. So it really was true.
Griffin [00:35:47] We weren't fear mongering. It was just fear.
Sarah [00:35:48] It was true.
Griffin [00:35:50] We were just so afraid.
Sarah [00:35:51] We said he would do, he in fact did and we all watched it on the TV.
Griffin [00:35:54] We weren't fear mongering. We were literally just being afraid. We were saying, this is scary. You should be scared. Not because we're making things up, but because we are seeing things.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:36:02] If anything, the fear surrounding a second Trump term is understated because we have all these people trying to excuse him. And he's coming out there and he's promising-- the guy is coming out and saying, "I'm going to terminate the Constitution."
[00:36:13] Well, the only thing that makes me feel better, Brian, is he doesn't keep promises. I always say he never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity. That's what you always have to keep in mind about Donald Trump. See our aforementioned campaign strategy that we were talking about.
Griffin [00:36:28] Yeah, the campaign strategy of going on--
Sarah [00:36:31] Ignoring the advice of everyone.
Griffin [00:36:32] Ignoring the advice of everyone and going on noted insane man Adin Ross's stream, noted crazy person on kik.com stream.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:36:43] When people see him do that-- I get that these people have big audiences, but does that actually hurt him among young people to see him associate themselves with like the Adin Rosses of the world?
Griffin [00:36:54] What I have seen is people see him on Adin Ross and the first reaction is, that's hilarious. Why is he doing that? And the second reaction is, what is he thinking?
Sarah [00:37:06] Well, how much among young people is just eye rolling, this doesn't matter to him or otherwise. Like he's the buffoon but the whole system is silly.
Griffin [00:37:12] I would say I see very few. There is nothing. The system is broken. Mainly because I just don't hang around a lot of like super political people, but also because--
Sarah [00:37:22] I'm less worried about the political people. I'm talking about your friends generally who don't pay a ton of attention to politics. Do they feel like this is all silly?
Griffin [00:37:28] The only people I see who think not every side is bad, everyone is wrong, is people raised in conservative households. They're both very smart people and they also believe their parents are right. So they have to square the belief of they know and they've seen Donald Trump is a buffoon and their parents say Donald Trump is the better option. So what they square in their minds is Kamala Harris must be awful, must be evil, and doing all these terrible things. And Donald Trump isn't great, but he's our best option.
Sarah [00:38:00] Fun fact, adults do that exact same mental gymnastics.
Griffin [00:38:03] Yeah. It's like both sides are bad, but my parents can't be wrong. So I guess both sides are just bad and they've chosen it.
Sarah [00:38:11] The adults are just doing it. I can't be wrong. They voted Republican. Like they're just doing that same exact thing [crosstalk].
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:38:16] They've convinced themselves. At least the kids have some plausible reliability because they've been raised-- everybody's raised to think that your parents are right until some people realize your parents are not. [Inaudible.] But I think it's such a smart point and it's exactly right. And I think people often have conflicting contradictory opinions and you have to figure out some way to reconcile those things in your mind. And I think for them it's like, okay, well, we can see that Trump is a clown. But also mom and dad are correct because mom and dad have always been correct. This is the house I grew up in. These are our values. And so we have to figure out a way to make both of those things true. And that's why I do think it's so important for everybody on the left who has a vested interest in democracy and health care and reproductive rights and combating climate change and paid family leave and unions and just all of the values that we hold on the left, I think it's important that we continue to pound people over the head with the reality of who Kamala Harris is and what the Democratic agenda is. That's why I repeat a lot of the same stuff over and over, because I don't know who's tuning in for the first time.
Griffin [00:39:23] Exactly.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:39:24] What if I get one of those two people that you're friends with? What if I get one of them listening for the first time? Am I going to just not expose the reality of the situation because I've said it before? And so I repeat myself a ton for two reasons. One is because I don't know who's listening for the first time. And the second is that if you're listening every time and you've heard this stuff over and over, eventually you'll get to the point where you can repeat it yourself and you can arm yourself with this information that you can then go out there. And if you've heard me say my list about the American Rescue Plan, the Inflation Reduction Act, the Pact Act, the Chips Act, the infrastructure law, the gun safety law, those--
Sarah [00:39:59] Your mother was also listing the same list.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:40:02] Exactly. Then you can go out and you can repeat that and you can use that in your arguments with people.
[00:40:06] Music Interlude.
Griffin [00:40:14] I mean, there are two things. The first thing is I was talking to one of my friends who is like that. And I think it was just after Kamala Harris chose Tim Walz. I just want to say I was [crosstalk] I feel very vindicated by saying, "Well, she picked Tim Walz. I really like Tim Walz." And we were talking and this friend was saying all these things that I'd heard before and were obviously wrong. And one of them was like, well, Kamala Harris is lying about being black. And I got caught off guard because I know this person. They're very, very smart. And I said, "Can you Google Kamala Harris's father for me real quick?" And he came back in the group chat and was like, "I'm sorry, I was wrong. I don't know what I was talking about. I just heard it so many times and I thought it was true." And the other thing is this idea from a man named Ian Danskin, and he's also kind of political, is arguments from the right only work via their messengers. They don't work any other way. You have to get this kind of way of saying it and way of kind of manipulating the idea.
Sarah [00:41:13] Have you ever tried to read a Trump transcript?
Griffin [00:41:15] Yeah. It's a really good diagram he basically has of a right wing person explaining something, but he's not really saying anything. He's just sort of explaining it in a good way. And it's hard to argue for those points if you're not already a public speaker. It's hard to argue for like no free school lunches if you don't know how to argue that. But meanwhile, on the left, it's very, very easy to argue all of these things. It's very easy to argue, of course, free school lunches are good. Of course, the Inflation Reduction Act is a good idea. Of course, all these things work.
Sarah [00:41:47] Yeah, but that's why they depend on socialism. They all sound good individually, but all together they want to give away the farm.
Griffin [00:41:53] Yeah, it's like communism [crosstalk].
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:41:54] Or they use socialism because it's some nebulous term that people don't really know what it means or communism or Marxism. That's why critical race theory. And they would wail about CRT or DEI because they find these nebulous terms that people can't easily nail down, can't easily pin down. It just becomes difficult for people to argue against something that has become such a loaded term that inherently doesn't really mean anything to so many people because then you can just make it this spooky boogeyman of a term that just encompasses everything that's scary about democrats.
Sarah [00:42:28] Well, I think a lot of times what it means is change and that's what people are scared about. A lot of times it just means they're going to do something different. Doesn't that scare you? Because the truth is personally I love change, but a lot of people aren't like that. And there's enough change just baked in that freaks people all the way out. And so if you say they're going to make it even faster and even more change, then people get really, really scared. Now I think what's going for us this cycle-- and we won't keep you all day, Brian, but as we've seen, as we've wrapped in the next debate, as we're going through this very fast presidential cycle, is to me, it feels like what people are more tired of than even the pace of change at this point is just the meanness. I had a woman who cleans our house, Rose, love of my life. We love her. And she was like, tell me why I should vote for Kamala but don't tell me why I shouldn't vote for Trump. Just tell me why I should vote for Kamala. And I was like, well, she's capable and she's not mean. Is that enough? I think she wants us to stop being mean to each other. The central argument is like, aren't you tired of this? And she said, "Yeah, I'm really tired of this. I'm really, really tired." I think for a while people weren't. I think people were ready to be mad. People were mad about a lot of things fairly and not fairly. And so when he was like, "Hey, you want to be mad?" Everyone was like, "Yes, I do." I think he's jumped the shark. I think that whole shtick has really jumped the shark..
Griffin [00:43:49] You can't be mad forever. And again this is also an [inaudible] something which is like everyone is scared. Everyone is scared all of the time and it is so harder to be scared if you're also really mad. I think the exact quote is it's a video about radicalization saying, "These things make Gabe scared, but it also pisses Dave off and it's easier for Dave to be pissed off than and it is for Dave to be scared."
Sarah [00:44:14] Fear is a secondary emotion.
Griffin [00:44:15] And you can't be angry forever. The thing was it was a New Year's Eve and a bunch of drunk people were on a train and being loud. And the bus driver was like "Can you please stop being loud?" And everyone got pissed at him and got even louder, but only for so long because it's easier to be ignorant and wrong than it is to be angry and wrong. It's Angry is not sustainable. You can be angry for eight years straight. It's so hard.
Sarah [00:44:38] I don't know. I feel like the Fox News people got it figured out [crosstalk].
Griffin [00:44:40] It's because they get paid for being angry.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:44:43] That's exactly right. And I think that to your point, they have jumped the shark because they thought that they could keep people good and angry forever. And we're realizing that there is a limit to how long we can stay angry for before people just get tired of it. I mean, it's exhausting. Look, Obama won in 2008 running a campaign predicated on hope and optimism. And that's been gone for 16 years and it's been replaced by anger and fear. And that's gotten them pretty far. I mean, the Trump presidency is the personification of these things. But I think now-- and this is something that I forgot too even in doing my messaging in advocating for Joe Biden when he was still the nominee-- is there is a lot to be said for hope and optimism and a positive vision for the future. And you forget that intangible is there and how important it is. And the fact that, look, Biden was running against the same opponent as Kamala Harris is. Donald Trump is just as dangerous when Biden was the nominee as he is when kamala's the nominee. But the reason that suddenly Donald Trump is no longer winning Minnesota in the polls and New Mexico in the polls and Virginia, New Hampshire in the polls, is because people are looking for that sense of optimism and hope. And I think that intangible is so important and people are so exhausted of this idea that we have to constantly, perpetually be steeped in cynicism and fear and anger.
Griffin [00:46:14] It's the most important election of our lives.
Sarah [00:46:17] And it is. It always is.
Griffin [00:46:19] It's hard to say that. It's so hard to sell people on it. I know the last one was super important, but this is the most important election of our lives.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:46:27] But I think when you give people something to look forward to and something to be actually optimistic about, they realize that that's so much more of a natural emotion for people to embrace than just being scared and mad every single day. There's a limit, and I think Fox was hoping that we would be scared and mad forever and that they could just coast off that forever, but look at the way that Kamala Harris is being embraced in a campaign predicated on hope and optimism. That is a testament to the fact that there is a limit in terms of how mad you can keep us before we're just looking for something [crosstalk].
Sarah [00:47:01] And I think the real genius stroke was at the patriotism, which Griffin loves to talk about. He's come around it. I'm wearing him down slowly.
Griffin [00:47:09] Whatever.
Sarah [00:47:10] It's because the reason Fox News could do it for as long as they did is because it was imbued with this patriotism. You're mad because you love this country so much. And that's like a little ember that you can keep alive. That gives people just enough to cling to. I'm not just an angry, hateful person, but I have something I'm fighting for.
Griffin [00:47:26] I love America so much.
Sarah [00:47:27] But on the Democratic side, now that we're saying, no, no, no, no, this isn't just about that we think America is the worst, we also love this country. We think that there's a lot to do here, a lot to improve, a lot to work for. That's what Obama was so good at hope and change, is that it was future oriented. You were giving some people a place to go. And I think the fact that we've reclaimed that is just incredible. And I don't mean just like as a political strategy, I think it's right and true and good.
Griffin [00:47:58] And it makes sense and [inaudible] able to do that because right now Donald Trump's campaign is for three and a half years we were living in hell. America's hell right now.
Sarah [00:48:06] [Crosstalk] three and a half years. I don't feel like I lived in hell.
Griffin [00:48:09] We're living in hell. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. What are we doing? And it was like, I mean, things would be better, but I like being in America. He's like, no, we're living in hell. We're not living in hell.
Sarah [00:48:17] I like it. I don't feel like I've been living in hell at all.
Griffin [00:48:19] The way people are feeling right now is I like it if we can improve some things. But I don't think that the world has gone to hell. Most people like America because we live here. But people will think--
Sarah [00:48:31] Because there's so much to like.
Griffin [00:48:33] Okay, because we live here.
Sarah [00:48:35] There's so much to like.
Griffin [00:48:35] Okay. All right.
Sarah [00:48:37] Don't make me make my list.
Griffin [00:48:38] Okay [inaudible].
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:48:40] I do think that's right. And I think that he's relying on the same thing that Fox News is doing, which is selling a vision for people that will push them away and keep them angry and give them-- but there's nothing, but there isn't anything. I mean, it does fly in the face of this same patriotism that Republicans had relied on for so long. Because when you look at what he's saying about the country and what he's saying about the people in it and who we are, that is completely antithetical to the very patriotism that Republicans have clung on to, that ember of patriotism. But when you're coming out and saying the military is filled with suckers and losers, that America's cities are hellscape, that the country has gone to shit, that there's nothing good about this country, then where is the Republican identity gone?
Sarah [00:49:29] We've like reversed psychology them. That's what they accused us of doing, especially around the critical race theory. America's the worst. But now they're the ones arguing America's the worst.
Griffin [00:49:38] And they're also this a thing, and this is another [inaudible] which is like, these people are restrained. What are they doing? They can't order donuts.
Sarah [00:49:48] You just get the sprinkle stuff. You just get what makes sense for you.
Griffin [00:49:50] I don't know what he was talking about there.
Sarah [00:49:52] In fairness that is how we ordered in Japan a lot. Can you just give us [inaudible].
Griffin [00:49:57] Yeah, but we didn't speak the language and we were in a foreign country and the food was foreign to us.
Sarah [00:50:02] That's why it's disorienting, because he's not in a foreign country. He was in a donut shop. The most American places.
Griffin [00:50:07] It's just like for the longest time they were like, and you talked about this thing about we're the [inaudible] party, we're the patriotic party. We just want to do what's right for America. And they can't do that anymore because Donald Trump is still defending when he staged a coup. And his running mate I don't even know if he has a single sense, not even a common one.
Sarah [00:50:28] It's weird. They're weird.
Griffin [00:50:28] They're weird people. And it's just so easy to be like, don't you want a normal president?
Sarah [00:50:34] Don't you want a vice president who can sing the Minard's theme song? Because I do.
Griffin [00:50:39] Yeah. Don't you want a normal president who has policy positions and would like to make America better and improved and not just go back and say, "We live in hell and I'm going to make us not live in hell." But say, "We live in a beautiful country and we can make it better."
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:50:50] Sometimes it's as simple as that. And I think that's why we hear this weird argument and it's so simple, but the reason it's so resonant is for that exact reason. I think that it's just everybody understands that if Donald Trump and J.D. Vance were at a party, that you'd probably steer clear of them as regular human beings. And at the end of the day, look, the American political system has long relied on this idea of would you want to get a beer with this person? And I'm glad that that's gone away. But the sentiment remains that if you had the opportunity to see somebody like Donald Trump or J.D. Vance in your real life, you probably wouldn't want to. And that is a powerful sense among Americans who recognize just how bizarre these kinds of people are because we've all met people like them in our real lives.
Sarah [00:51:39] Brian, thank you so much.
Griffin [00:51:40] This was really, really nice.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:51:43] Thank you. Thank you for having me. First of all, I appreciate it. And thanks for what you both are doing because I think it's very important among different people. And I think just being able to reach your audience with good information unto itself is so crucial in this political media environment where we need to be able to have truth tellers coming up and standing up to the disinformation pervading our media ecosystem. But also Griffin just to be able to reach people one on one and me hearing that you're talking to people in your group chats and stuff and your text messages, that's the difference for so many people. And I wish that everybody could focus on just a handful of people in their circles. That's what I advocate for.
Sarah [00:52:27] We're just trying to influence.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:52:28] I'm not asking for everybody to go out there and start a YouTube channel, reach a million people. But if you can spread some good information to like three or four, then you've done your job multiple times over. So keep doing what you're doing. It makes a big difference.
Sarah [00:52:43] And everybody check out Brian's book.
Griffin [00:52:44] Yeah. It's a really good book.
Sarah [00:52:45] Griffin loves it. Shameless.
Griffin [00:52:47] It was very fun to read.
Sarah [00:52:47] And congratulations on your New York Times bestseller number one spot. That's amazing.
Griffin [00:52:49] Congrats on writing it. I thought it was really good.
Brian Tyler Cohen [00:52:53] Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
Sarah [00:52:55] And thanks for all your good work.
Beth [00:52:57] Thank you so much to Brian Tyler Cohen, to you Sarah and Griffin. It's a big ask of a teenager to come be on the show and be so open and vulnerable, so we really appreciate his willingness to do that. Don't forget to check our show notes for information on our Boston live show on November 7th and our virtual event on October 17th with the Mormon Women for Ethical Government. We'll be back in your ears next Wednesday. Our teams going to take that federal holiday on Monday off and then we will get right back to it. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.
[00:53:23] Music Interlude.
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